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The Dryer Conundrum

Ted — August 12, 2011

One of the problems with building a tightly sealed house is that a lot of things we take for granted in a regular house suddenly become difficult when your main ventilation system runs at under 100cfm. A dryer typically blows 150-200 cfm when it's running. This means that it's going to be sucking cold air in through the HRV. On a really cold day, this could cause serious trouble for the HRV—the exchange plate could frost over. But more than that, it's (ironically) blowing warm air out of the house, while at the same time sucking cold air into the house. Again, on a cold day, really not what you want.

Range hoods cause similar trouble—they want to push air out of the house at >100cfm, and the air they are pushing out is generally warm air from the conditioned airspace, which must be replaced with cold air from outside. This seems like a minor issue until you consider that, aside from insulation, one of the main reasons that a Passivhaus has such a low energy budget is that you aren't heating large quantities of outside air as it leaks in through your drafty building envelope. So when you turn on these vents, your undersized Passivhaus heating system may be unable to keep up.

An additional complication is that if you have any appliances in the house that burn any sort of fuel, you are going to be creating a relative vacuum outside of the those appliances, and that might draw combustion products into the interior airspace that ought to be going up a chimney. We already had to tearfully let go of my 30,000 BTU wok ring dreams (actually, Andrea was remarkably dry-eyed) because of combustion products that couldn't be readily ventilated. No gas stove either. But externally ventilated gas heaters are very popular in tight homes, because they can be very efficient. Marc had a wood stove in his house in New Hampshire (although that wasn't a Passivhaus). Anything like this is going to be a potential hazard if you have exhaust fans running separately from your HRV.

Fortunately, we already gave up on a gas heater and decided to go with a heat pump instead. So we don't have to worry about that. But lots of exhaust vents are still something we have to avoid.

What a lot of Passivhaus people do is to set up drying rooms in their houses. This isn't a bad idea—it can be as low-tech as an indoor clothesline, or as high-tech as an enclosed space with a dehumidifier and/or a heater, plus some kind of exhaust fan that exhausts into the living space. We don't really want to dedicate a special room to this task, but we could certainly set up drying racks in the utility room and the mudroom on laundry days, and I suspect we will.

However, on a practical level, there will be times when we will want a dryer, either because we are drying more clothes than we have space for, or we are in a hurry, or whatever. Plus, for resale purposes, not having a dryer is kind of a non-starter. So I did a little research, which I thought I would share here.

The cheapest product I could find is an LG condensing dryer. This works the same way a regular electric dryer does: there's a heating element that heats the clothes to drive the moisture out, and a vent. Where it differs is that instead of leading outside, the vent leads into a condenser system which condenses the moisture out of the air, filters out the lint (sort of, according to some reviewers), and dumps it down the drain.

This would certainly work, and work well, but there are two problems with it. First, it turns out that it consumes more energy than a plain old electric dryer. When you count the cost of heating the replacement air, it's probably a wash, but this is definitely not a win. The second problem is that it cools the condenser with cold water from your tap, which it dumps down the drain. I get the impression that it's not a lot of water, but there are still some problems. Some people love this device, and some hate it. The ones who hate it often talk about problems they've had with leakage and pump failures. I suspect that the Rube Goldberg nature of the condenser has something to do with this.

So I did a little more research, with the help of Green Building Advisor. Actually, a lot of what I learned came from reading GBA, and I recommend this article highly if you want to drill a little deeper than the presentation I'm offering here. GBA talked about a Bosch system called Ecologixx that's called a "heat pump dryer."

When I was reading the Amazon product page for the LG dryer, I just assumed that it had a fan and a dehumidifier, which seemed like it ought to be more efficient than a heating element, but GBA cured me of that presumption. However, the Bosch Ecologixx series of dryer products do in fact work pretty much the way I had hoped the LG would. Most of these products don't seem to be available in the U.S., but the Bosch Axxis dryer is available, and it's actually pretty reasonably priced—about $200 more than the LG. Not everybody loves it, but it looks like a win in theory.

The bottom line is that I feel pretty good about not putting in an outside vent for the dryer. I don't love that this means we have to get rid of our Kenmore dryer, which has been a friend to us for many years, but I suspect that Freecycle will help us to find a good home for it.

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Re: The Dryer Conundrum

Don Guttenplan — October 24, 2011

Hi Ted. We're friends (and future clients) of Eli's (our place in VT is next door to Packer Corners where Eli grew up) and I've loved reading about your house. I also have some experience with condensing dryers. When we bought our place in VT it had a Maytag washer, bought in 1975, and a Maytag dryer of the same vintage. They both worked fine through the turn of the millennium, so when we moved house in London, England, where we live most of the year, we bought a Maytag stacking unit from the American Appliance company. It did more laundry in one load than any European machine, but also used tons more water and electricity, and in Europe they tend to notice that stuff more (maybe because it costs a lot more). So when the dryer here died, I bought a Bosch Logixx stack for about what it would have cost to replace the Maytag dryer (shipping and labor in Iowa must be pretty high). We have 3 kids and a dog, and although we do have to allow about twice as much time for each load of laundry, we've had it for 3 years and it works just fine. Also the maytag dryer was always getting overheated because of lint clogging the long vent run to the outside of the house. Now we just make sure to clean the lint filters and empty the tank of condensed (i.e. distilled) water--which is very good for feeding houseplants or putting in whatever evaporator/humidifier you might use to keep the air from drying out.

If we had more room, or London wasn't so damp, I'd definitely add a Pulleymaid dryer. Here's a link to the UK manufacturer (the traditional thing here is to rig it up over your AGA coal stove but it could work in whatever kind of warm room you have) http://www.pulleymaid.com/Classic_Clothes_Airer.htm

Good luck with your house. It looks lovely.

best wishes,

Don

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Re: The Dryer Conundrum

John' O'Brien — August 18, 2011

We picked up a Bosch Axxis condensing dryer this past year during our retrofit of our house. No more external vents.

I've had no complaints on the dryer and that's with 2 large furry dogs. I don't see why you'd use anything else. Barring that, if they ever import the heatpump dryers, those are quite a bit more efficient apparently, so that'd be great too. At the end of the day, we only really use the dryer for towels and big stuff, that we can't hang, and only in the winter.

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Re: The Dryer Conundrum

Ted — August 22, 2011

Hm, well, this is a lot of good information. I was under the impression that the Axxis had the heat pump mechanism, but if it doesn't, that explains why the price is so reasonable, I guess. Based on your advice, I think we're going to hold off on buying a new dryer until the heat pump model becomes available in the U.S., or at least until we can figure out a way to import one.

In any case, though, it's good to hear a positive testimonial. Reading the reviews on Amazon, it's hard to tell whether the people who absolutely hate condensing dryers know what they are talking about, or whether the product didn't work for them because they were expecting it to be identical to a dryer that runs on resistive heat or propane.

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Re: The Dryer Conundrum

Jay — August 16, 2011

I have the same problem. A solution that I am thinking of is to make an air tight, insulated, closet that will hold a stacked washer/dryer with an exterior door. I then will run a 4 inch vent into the space from outside and the dryer vent back outside. This will seperate the dryer and the ventalation issues from the rest of the house but still allow me to have the washer and dryer on the second floor by the bedrooms.

For the range hood, I am planning to find the lowest cfm exhaust fan allowable and duct the exhaust into the HRV exhaust.

For the bathroom, I will try to use the same strategy as the range hood.

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Re: The Dryer Conundrum

Ted — August 22, 2011

Marc reacted with what I assume was a look of horror (we were doing a phone conference, so I didn't actually see his expression) when I proposed running the range hood output into the HRV. Apparently this is a really bad idea, because the grease from the stove will tend to quickly gum up the transfer plate in the HRV. HRVs are really expensive items, so this is a bit of a false economy.

I personally think that a really effective range hood filter could be made using standard furnace filters and a good fan, and it could exhaust right back into the living space without creating a problem. But I suspect we'll just go with a commercially-available hood for the time being, because Andrea is a bit skeptical of the Ted-bilt [tm] range hood plan.

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Re: The Dryer Conundrum

John' O'Brien — August 22, 2011

There's a couple of really nice recirculating range hoods with centrifugal grease filters (or something equally cool sounding).

I unhooked our external exhaust hood last year, and set it on recirc mode. Works good enough for us.

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Re: The Dryer Conundrum

Ted — August 22, 2011

Woah, centrifugal grease filters really do sound cool! Seriously, do you have any recommendations?

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Re: The Dryer Conundrum

Erik Haugsjaa — August 23, 2011

RE: recirc hoods.

We have a recirc range hood in our almost passivhaus in Massachusetts.

There are some $35 ones with recirc that would maybe be fine (from Sears and such) but loud.

Our model:
We maybe foolishly bought the Kobe RA3830SQD which we use in "under cabinet" mode and it's fine and nice looking and has those grease thingies mentioned, but heck, I'm not sure it's worth the money given we aren't greasing up the joint much. The controls are a bit annoying. It's lowest speed is so quiet you can forget it's on.

Perhaps do a $35 one until it proves inadequate? That's what I wish I did.

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Re: The Dryer Conundrum

John' O'Brien — August 24, 2011

Not to hijack this thread, but your website doesn't seem to be accepting comments Erik. I was actually curious about your use of the HPWH in your house over the winter..

I had posted a question on GBA the other day, but didn't get as much back and forth as I had hoped.
http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/community/forum/green-building-techn...

I was considering installing a geyser, or equivalent unit, on the 2nd floor of our place, Use the built-in efficiencies of both the HPWH and the ASHP to try to avoid dwh at a cop of 1 via straight electric tanks. Glad to see it's working well enough in your place.

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Re: The Dryer Conundrum

Ted — August 24, 2011

Noise is a bit of a deal-breaker, but $35 is certainly a nice price point—the Vent-A-Hoods are in the $3000 range. We don't produce a lot of grease either. The Kobes are quite a bit cheaper than the Vent-A-Hoods, so that's definitely a helpful recommendation. I have to say, though, I really don't understand why these products are so expensive. I feel like I could fabricate one for less, and I can't believe the filters are *that* high-tech.

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Re: The Dryer Conundrum

Andrea — August 24, 2011

We have to pay a bit more than that because we need an island range hood (not wall-mount) , but I'm starting to agree we should just get the cheapest one and go from there. Yes, we do a lot of vegetarian stir-frying, but fortunately no bacon or anything super-greasy.

John, no need to apologize about thread-hijacking. I'm just glad everyone is getting along :-)

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Re: The Dryer Conundrum

John' O'Brien — August 24, 2011

I have never actually used the one we have, just a microwave/hood fan combo so I'm probably not the best one to ask. I don't have any aspirations to be some super flameworthy chef.

Give me a simple induction cooktop to not throw off heat into the house and i'm happy. Actually, I'd be more content if I had the cooktop inside, and my stove outside, so I could bake bread in the summer and not have to AC the stove...

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Re: The Dryer Conundrum

Ted — August 24, 2011

Smart man. I'm actually having a bit of worry about that, because I too would like to be able to bake bread in the summer, and it seems dumb to do it indoors. I guess during the shoulder seasons, just opening the windows will take care of the heat. But in the height of summer, running an oven inside the house seems like a really bad idea.

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Re: The Dryer Conundrum

John' O'Brien — August 24, 2011

Google 'outdoor brick pizza oven'. You'll never be the same again. ;)

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Re: The Dryer Conundrum

Ted — August 24, 2011

I'm not sure whether to be impressed or dismayed. Certainly those would do the trick. I suspect I'm too lazy to actually build one, but on the other hand if they made really good french loaves, it might be worth it.

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Re: The Dryer Conundrum

John O'Brien — August 23, 2011

I can't seem to find the fancy one I was talking about, but these are pretty sharp as well.

http://www.ventahood.com/ductfree.jsp

The fancy ones were from some european company... Names escaped me unfortunately.

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Re: The Dryer Conundrum

Ted — August 23, 2011

The Vent-A-Hood hoods sound great! I love the idea that you can just pull the centrifugal filter out and pop it in the dishwasher to clean it. If we can source a good product locally, that's always preferable. It's been a bit of a frustration to us that we've had to go to Europe for large items like windows, since that increases the embodied energy footprint of the house. It looks like Vent-A-Hood's manufacturing facility is in Richardson, Texas, which is farther than most of our building materials are traveling, but still not too bad.

We'll definitely investigate these further—thanks for the pointer!

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Re: The Dryer Conundrum

Gary — August 15, 2011

Ted,

I have been following the page for awhile. Wife and I are working toward a move to Vermont and eventually would like to build.

I have been thinking about the dryer and was wondering about just putting it in a garage.

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Re: The Dryer Conundrum

Ted — August 22, 2011

By the way, thanks for the suggestion. It seems obvious in retrospect, but it really didn't occur to me, so it's a good thing you mentioned it. :)

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Re: The Dryer Conundrum

Ted — August 22, 2011

*Sound of palm slapping forehead*

Yes, of course. This is what we will do for the time being. Our garage won't be directly connected to the house, so we may still go with the heat pump dryer when it's available, but this is a great short-term solution.

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Re: The Dryer Conundrum

Erik Haugsjaa — August 15, 2011

FWIW... we haven't missed our dryer. If you have a front-loader the clothes come out almost dry. Just make sure you put the washer somewhere near where you have space to have racks or lines (in the house) if you are too lazy or inconvenienced by weather to hang clothes outside (like us most of the time). We have 2 huge racks in the basement. Does the trick.

The one thing I've missed with air-source heat pump heating is very hot baseboards or air-vents to dry off soaking-wet winter coats, mittens, socks. I occasionally pound a mitten at the last minute with a blowdryer. That's about it..

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Re: The Dryer Conundrum

Ted — August 22, 2011

Andrea came up with a design for an indoor clothesline setup that I think will work for stuff we can dry on the line. We'll do an article on it later, I think. Executive summary: retractable wires that hang in the open area above the dining room.

You're right about mittens—this past winter I generally put really wet stuff on a floor grate, and in the leaks-like-a-sieve Victorian apartment we're living in, that was enough to get them dry in very short order.

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