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If you could design your dream window, what would it be?

Andrea — April 24, 2011

Marvin Windows is currently running magazine ads asking well-known designers this question and showing pictures of the pretty windows they came up with:

Marvin Windows magazine ad

I really wish they'd ask a few American green-building gurus this question, because I'm sure they'd get an earful:

  • Whole-window U-values lower than 0.17, and glass U-values around 0.10 (the window in the Marvin ad has a U-value of 0.30, which is totally lame)
  • Solar heat gain coefficient (SHGC) greater than 0.50
  • Visible transmittance (VT) greater than 0.50
  • Tilt-turn operation with inward swing
  • Geeky details I won't bother explaining, such as 4/16/4/16/4mm triple-glazing and a plastic warm edge spacer of Psi=0,038

In Europe, dozens of manufacturers make windows like that, but in North America hardly anyone does. The best North American window vendors are making a reasonable attempt, but they all fail on at least one of Ted's and my requirements:

  • Serious Windows' highest-performing windows are casement, not in-swing, which means they open outwards with a little crank at the base. This is mechanically inefficient, and it also limits the size of windows they can sell. We have some gloriously big south-facing windows in our dining area, and we don't want to make them smaller. Also, their best SHGC is 0.42, which is not as good as the standard Passivhaus windows from Europe.
  • Canadian companies Accurate-Dorwin and Thermotech Fiberglass didn't sell in-swing windows last time I checked. My main complaint about out-swing windows is that the screen is inside the window, which I simply don't like. And yes, I know about retractable window screens, but I'm still not jazzed about opening a heavy triple-paned window with a crank.
  • Inline Fiberglass makes a tilt-turn frame, but they still aren't big enough for our front windows. They offered to sell us a modified doorframe full of glass, but c'mon! Also, their best windows use Serious glass, which has slightly lower SHGC and VT than the European glass.
  • I could list a few more North American vendors, but they are mostly using Inline frames and Serious glass, whose shortcomings I listed above. And you'll notice I didn't mention the big-name American manufacturers -- as far as I know, Marvin, Pella, and Andersen aren't even trying to build Passivhaus-worthy windows.

    Ted and I are therefore likely to order windows from Europe. If money were no object we'd want something like Optiwin's Passivhaus-certified three-wood window, but sadly we are on a budget, and ever-plummeting dollar doesn't help. But the high-end American windows I listed above aren't cheap either, and there's enough variety and competition in Europe, particularly from the former Eastern bloc, that we can get something good for an acceptable price.

    We haven't made our final decision yet, but we're likely either to get German windows manufactured in Slovenia (or possibly Slovakia?) or Polish-made windows. We rejected some Lithuanian windows, not because we have anything against Baltic states but simply because the importer is based in DC and we want to work with someone more local. If we're handing someone a five-figure check just to place the order, we want to be able to drive over and hassle them from time to time.

    We're still waiting on a couple more estimates, but once we make our decision I'll post all sorts of titillating window specs and diagrams for your perusal.

    [Added on 2011-10-03: It's possible I've been a little too hard on North American glass manufacturers, since there's apparently some difference in how they test glass performance in Europe, but I stand by what I said about tilt-turn vs. casement operation.]

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Re: If you could design your dream window, what would it be?

rhaverlock — April 26, 2012

If your not using wood windows, try Thermotech from Canada. They have used on Passive house in Washington State.

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Re: If you could design your dream window, what would it be?

Douglas P — December 29, 2011

i am remodeling a home in McCall, Idaho and looking at windows became a major issue. McCall get 10 to 12 feet of snow annually, and typically only three months out of the year it does not get below freezing. After looking at all of the options, what te initial costs were including shipping, potential payback and ease of replacing any broken or worn out parts in the future I decided on the Serious brand. I would strongly agree with everyone who speaks of the big manufacturing brands not getting it. My research showed they were not even on the same page for what I was looking for. I would also agree that the European brands are a better window, but my budget could not absorb the additional costs. The Serious windows I bought are casement style. In the summer when they are open the principal is that will scoop the air and direct it into the rooms. With these windows, super insulation and a continuious thermal break I can heat the 1400 square foot area with one plug in area heater.

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Ted and you, valiant search for Passivhaus windows

Maria Everhart — November 4, 2011

Just thought it was gratifying to hear about another couple searching for appropriate source materials. We settled on Serious Windows in our "Almost" Passive House remodel project, ordered the summer of 2009, but my husband TAD (not Ted) would agree that he has spent 1/3 to 1/2 of our total remodeling project time identifying, contacting salespeople, and ordering materials that can meet Passivhaus standards, while trying to order local or at least US for obvious freight carbon footprint reasons. We are right now in the midst before winter hits of insulating our foundations. Foamglass from Missouri, extruded polystyrene blocks from Tacoma, WA. Nice to "meet" you, I have never written to a blogger before, and have been thinking of starting a blog about "living in a Passive House." --Maria Everhart, The Accidental Green Mom

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Re: Ted and you, valiant search for Passivhaus windows

Andrea — November 4, 2011

Wow, sounds like a big job you've got there! I am very impatient to start "living in a Passive House" -- I've never actually been inside of one. I suppose you could say we're building this house sight unseen ;-)

Best wishes for a cozy winter, and good luck with blogging if you decide to go for it.

Cheers,
Andrea

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Re: If you could design your dream window, what would it be?

Cathy Rust — November 3, 2011

Hi Andrea,
I love reading about your house! I hear what you say about local windows, however, just so you know, Chris Stratka in Ottawa has received Passivehouse certification for his home and he used Inline Fiberglass windows, including on his third floor where they took up the entire southfacing wall (tilt and turn too). Like you, he wasn't sure if he'd make passivehouse certification, so he was thrilled when he discovered his house qualified.
If you'd like to investigate other European window options, you might contact Terrell Wong, who is involved with the Passivehouse community in Canada and swears by German-made windows in her passivehouse projects.
Here are links to articles I wrote on these two houses (contact information for each is at the bottom of each article):

http://becgreen.ca/2010/05/28/a-rosedale-house-super-renovation-targetin...

http://becgreen.ca/2011/03/08/a-tour-of-the-first-passive-house-certifie...

Good luck with your window hunt!
Best,
Cathy Rust

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Re: If you could design your dream window, what would it be?

Shiebaj — November 4, 2011

Marvin makes a fiberglass window called Infinity. I imagine that would perform far better and last longer than PVC.
http://www.integritywindows.com/

We're considering them for a gut remodel on 1930 bungalow in Dallas, TX.

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Re: If you could design your dream window, what would it be?

Andrea — November 4, 2011

The European uPVC windows have almost nothing in common with American vinyl windows. The team who installed them were completely blown away by the quality, and they are used to building high-end houses.

I couldn't find insulation values on the site you sent. Are the frame and glass numbers close to the ones I posted? If so, that is a great new option.

Of course, you're in Dallas and not Vermont, so you don't need the high SHGC we require and you can probably get away without quite so high an R-value (low U-value).

Best of luck with your remodel!

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Re: If you could design your dream window, what would it be?

Jeff McMahon — May 1, 2011

When you get prices and info on these windows please share...I am hunting down passive house windows and am trying to get real world costs on the imports.
thanks!
Jeff

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Re: If you could design your dream window, what would it be?

Andrea — May 9, 2011

Hi Jeff,

We haven't placed our order yet, but the least expensive Passivhaus-certified windows we've found so far are Schuco uPVC windows from European Architectural Supply.

I'll tell you more about prices once we've finalized our order, and assuming our supplier doesn't mind if we publish what we paid.

Cheers,
Andrea

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Re: If you could design your dream window, what would it be?

Derek Roff — November 3, 2011

My dream windows wouldn't contain any PVC, since it is a toxic material with a very negative environmental and social footprint. I'm skeptical of the longevity claims, too. I recognize that it is hard to do anything well, and that compromises are inevitable. Still, focusing only on energy conservation after the house is built is a rather limited, even myopic approach to green building. Embodied energy is a big portion of the total energy consumption of an efficient house. Along a similar line, making choices that dump a lot of greenhouse gasses into the atmosphere before and during construction is not a good thing. Those gasses will be having a negative impact on the world starting the moment that they are generated, and for each and every year into the future, even if the house is ticking along with a low additional contribution to carbon emissions.

Everything is a tough choice. I'm hopeful that some people considering these questions and reading this blog will think about using as many local, non-toxic, natural, minimally-processed materials with low embodied energy. I hope we can expand our horizons, and make green choices with a broader definition of green. Products are improving, and demand for better products grows. If we make more rigorous and holistic specifications for the aspects of green that we want in our products, we will increase the chances that manufacturers will supply what we are looking for.

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Re: If you could design your dream window, what would it be?

Andrea — November 4, 2011

I wouldn't call these my "dream windows," because I too don't like using PVC. Ted can tell you stories about how neurotic I am about buying anything in a plastic package, since I hate to think about it languishing in a landfill for centuries to come. But the cost of this house is becoming quite staggering, and we had to compromise somewhere.

Early in our window hunt we found a local vendor of cork-insulated Passivhaus windows (using glass from Serious Materials), but their quote was roughly three times what we paid for the Schuco windows. European-made wood-aluminum windows cost about twice as much as the windows we bought.

We could have bought some Polish-made wood Passivhaus windows from a vendor in Maine for an acceptable price, but we were so impressed by the level of support from Patrik and Tomas at European Architectural Supply that we decided to buy from them. For no extra charge, they worked with our builder to design custom installation profiles for our extremely unusual envelope.

I sincerely hope to prod and shame the North American window manufacturers into producing better windows on this side of the pond. In the meantime, this was the best we could do.

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Re: If you could design your dream window, what would it be?

Rainier Wolfcastle — April 26, 2011

Those choosing not to live in the Frozen North might strongly disagree with your insistence on a high SHGC. ;-)

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Re: If you could design your dream window, what would it be?

Andrea — May 9, 2011

Definitely! High SHGC would have been pretty dreadful in Tucson, and it's probably a bad idea on a western exposure even in a cold climate.

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Re: If you could design your dream window, what would it be?

Ted — April 24, 2011

One minor nit: the problem with windows that swing out with a crank isn't just that the crank is inefficient or that the screens are inside, although these certainly are problems. The problem is that cranking systems don't last. My parents' house has outswing windows on cranks, and several of them don't open anymore because the cranks wore out. Replacing the cranks is possible, but nontrivial. Inswing windows are mechanically much simpler--all you need is a latch.

Passivhaus windows actually have an additional mechanism to pull the entire window evenly against the seal--essentially, they have at least one latching mechanism on each edge of the window, and when you latch the window, this mechanism puts pressure on the seal--it doesn't just stop the window from opening. The user of the window sees this as a door-sized handle on one edge of the window; when you turn the handle, a simple (strong) mechanical linkage inside the window operates all four latches.

This is probably *more* complicated than the crank, but the good news is that there are no gears, and the gears are the thing that usually fails in cranks. Still, I will be interested to see how these mechanisms age.

It's quite possible that the Serious Windows cranks are a lot more sturdy than the ones at my parents' house. We haven't examined them in detail, because we don't like outward-swinging windows for the reasons that Andrea stated. So don't take this as a reason not to buy Serious Windows if you otherwise like them. I'm just explaining some of the reasoning behind my personal resistance to using outward-swinging windows.

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Re: If you could design your dream window, what would it be?

Nick Barnes — April 24, 2011

Many very ordinary double-glazed windows in the UK have a locking/latching mechanism which operates in approximately the way you describe: by (e.g.) lifting the handle, the latches engage all around the window and seal it more perfectly along all four sides (and if there is a lock then all the latches lock into place). If, say, there is noisy traffic outside, you can tell the difference in sound transmission.

I've had (cheap and otherwise rubbishy) doors and windows like that for many years and that feature generally gives no problems.

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